At a summer gathering, the topic of our relationship with money came up. The discussion
deepened into how our response to what we know may manifest all the way out to the
surface of our selves and our lives. Here is an excerpt of what followed as the topic of
response developed:

John: The relationship with money can’t even be addressed without addressing the
whole relationship people have to the self. It’s only because of that that the relationship
with money is what it is: upside down. It’s just a symptom of what is a lot deeper.

Q: We were talking about response earlier. When you say ‘response’ do you mean the
being comes out?

John: Because there’s a giving over of you in your self to you in your heart, and you in
what’s deeper. That has to manifest all the way through to the surface.

Q: Do you mean in our ideas, or our speaking, in money, in our sexuality?

John: In the shifting of form. People don’t let form shift because of what matters.

Q: The response is not only the being, then. It’s more about building. Can you say more
about what you mean by response?

John: When you give to what is within, that’s going to translate to giving. The same
movement outward is going to move through the same path, so there’s going to be a

Q: It could be any kind of giving, right? We’ve been talking about different subjects: sex,
money, churches, community. These are all forms. Are you saying that this giving is the
response from the being?

John: If the response goes all the way through to the inside it’s going to come out all the
way through to the outside. And when it doesn’t come all the way through to the
outside it’s because it was stopped all the way through to the inside. As you go deeper
within, you start to realize the implications of that in your life and then you hold back a
bit from going within. Then the implications in your life come back to something that
you’re comfortable with. That’s how people live.

Q: I’ve felt frustration expressed amongst us that something isn’t really happening yet.

John: There is something that isn’t really happening. What isn’t happening in the group
is a follow-through, all the way to the surface, of what the trajectory is within, so the
trajectory within starts to slow down because that has implications on the surface. The
surface has to be controlled, so the response within becomes controlled and a comfort
zone is created.

Q: What can trigger this change and allow the movement to go all the way out?

John: The end of personal sovereignty, followed all the way through to the surface. The
entire concept of personal rights would be over, and thinking on the basis of personal
rights: building on the foundation that you’re entitled to a good life, an easy life, the life
that you would like to have that is actually meaningless.

Q: Is it enough that one of us gets it – apart from you – for all of us to follow? Is that

John: Yes, but for the group it still needs to come through. Not all of us, but enough that
it’s clearly understood and lived amongst us.

Q: What do you mean?

John: So that your whole relationship with your self, all the way through to everything on
the surface, isn’t determined by what you believe or what you want. It isn’t driven by
personal sovereignty. It’s just quietly moved by what is most deeply clear.

Q: Can you be more specific?

John: A very surface manifestation of that would be, in your life, just doing the wise
thing: concerning all of your movements in life, you’re just doing the wise thing to do, in
all of the little things. If people were to consider living that way that would make them
wonder why even live? If you’re going to do all those wise things that means you can’t
do what you want, so why live? People relate to what they want, not the wise thing to

Q: So the bigger shift within the group would actually be that, within our lives, rather
than going deeper in the meetings, for example?

John: Yes.

Q: So it’s the surface level that brings the big shift?

John: The more it reaches into the surface, the deeper it can go.

Q: So the surface has more impact.

John: The surface holds the power of how deep you will go. The surface holds all the
power. If the surface surrenders the power to what’s deeper, then what is deep is able
to come in and control the surface. If the surface doesn’t surrender that power to
what’s deeper, then what’s deeper is not able to come into the surface and control the

Q: That’s in all the hundreds of choices every day, throughout my day: how much I eat,
whether I exercise … all these little nitty gritty things?

John: Yes. What you are in your day is what determines how deep you’ll go in meetings.

Q: And what I am in my day is determined by these choices?

John: Yes.

Q: You always say everything comes from inside, right?

John: Everything cannot come from inside if the surface doesn’t give away all of its
power to the inside.

Q: What can trigger that?

John: Honesty. In a practical way we live as though we’re not going to die. If we were to
live really knowing that we’re going to die, we wouldn’t live the same way. Then we would
live for what is deeply, quietly clear because everything that you invest in your self is all
based on the illusion that tomorrow you’ll still be here to collect on your investment. If
you might not be here tomorrow or next year, the way that you are with your resources
in your life would be different.

Q: I can see that I have a belief that it doesn’t matter that much, that other things
matter more.

John: All of the power that you hold in what you eat and why and all of the little
decisions of your life, all of that power belongs to why you are in meetings. And without
that shift of power you can’t come into what you’re really opening into in meetings.

Q: Is there anything to support that as well as making wise choices based on my clarity?

John: That’s a lot

Q: What are the other tiny ways?

John: All of the ways that you control things in your life that you believe are in your
control. You exercise that control, so you have all of these holdings. When you die those
holdings release and you have no power. That describes the illusion. If you’re saving
and saving, putting money in the bank and there’s so much energy going into that, as
soon as you die someone else takes that bank account and is going to do whatever with
it – even the government. As soon as you die you’re powerless concerning your bank
account, and yet we live believing we have power over it: to hold it and use it for what
we want. But it’s all illusory: it’s not real. If it were real then you would hold or move your
bank account based on something you are deeply clear about that isn’t based on your
life. But it’s such a transference of thinking. If you’re invested in your self, as soon as you
even look in that direction a little bit, in your self it’s: “No we don’t need to go there.”

Q: How can you look at it in a true way? We don’t know when we’ll die and there are many
unknown factors. We still have to manage it in a wise way. Money in the bank is a
potential to do something. Does managing wisely mean not using it for my self?

John: Your thinking would not be on behalf of your self. Your thinking would be on
behalf of what you’re deeply, quietly clear about. Your self is included in that, but your
self is not the point.

Q: But you can still buy nice things? Nice clothes, nice furniture …

John: It’s not about whether you have the right to have some nice clothes and some
nice furniture. It’s about what does the power of being able to move something like that
actually belong to?

Q: I feel as if you’re saying to move as nothing and nobody in the shopping mall.

John: In that way if you move as nothing and nobody you might even just take all of the
money in your bank account and give it for food for the poor. The poor are not living for
what you are moving in, in a deeper trajectory.

Q: I assume I will reach an old age so it’s wise to have a saving for the future.

John: As a perspective in this world, yes. For a worldly perspective that’s wise.
You can save for later, but being really clear that that money that goes into your bank
account because you’re saving for something that’s later actually doesn’t mean a lot to
you. Then it’s clear to you that any moment that can shift and you’ll move it differently.

Q: I’m surprised that I’ve been here for 10 years and I never had it spelled out like that.

John: I’ve been saying all along that it matters most in the little things. If you do it in the
little things you’ll do it in the big things. And that it all needs to come through into the

Q: When what I know deeper is more important than the surface then there would be a
willingness to surrender the surface control, power, but I don’t see it happening.

John: If you follow that through, it means you’ll die that way. To start opening, make
choices in little things in your day that actually make sense to you instead of doing little
things in your day that don’t actually make sense to you.

Q: I see step by step the dishonesty. I see it, and it’s as if I’m powerless to move
differently in it.

John: Like doing this in some little things in your day, and see the difference.
Like that, and when you like that you’ll do it. As you do it you realize you don’t just like it
you actually really do like it.

Q: The problem is, sometimes, that we’re mostly creatures of habit. I think I have to ask
more questions and look at the little bit.

John: Yes. Look at the little bit in the little things in your day, and then also look at the
really big, such as what is it that your whole life actually belongs to? So you’re holding
the big and you’re holding the little bits in your day. Then, once you have both, connect

Q: What you belong to is love, isn’t it? You give everything to what you love.

John: That’s too abstract. You can give everything to what you love and then you’re love,
but that doesn’t change practical things in your life. Let everything follow through to the
surface, so if you belong to love, what does that mean in your life?

Q: Loving your self, loving others …

John: You have your patterned way of looking at that, so your mind thinks “I’m sort of
doing that so everything’s fine.” But if you interrupt the pattern and you look into all of
that in a way that is clear to what you know but without your familiar way of thinking,
you start to see your life differently and it has real, practical implications in your life –
really big ones.

Q: But how do we ascertain what is really important, what is wise? Many things are wise.
How does that become practical?

John: Look at what is within your control – and you are controlling it, because it’s yours.
If you were not to live from within any kind of personal sovereignty and let that manifest
all the way through to the surface, then how would everything that you are in control of
change, or move differently? It is all based on how it has been in the past, which is
personal sovereignty, so if that were to shift, how is everything that you’re in control of
going to change? What would that look like?

Q: That’s a lot, but you’re talking about the smallest things in life, right?

John: This is a bigger thing that you have control over. It matters in the little things, and
it matters in the big things.